IDPA Rule Chat

[solaritx]

I strongly believe that the ammo a shooter uses must make power factor out of his/her weapon, period.

Allowing a shooter to use ammo that does not make power factor out of the shooter's pizza gun, but still allowing him/her to use it because it does make power factor out of a longer barreled Glock 34 makes no logical sense. Reality is the shooter is not shooting up to the minimum power factor and thus not fairly competing against others who are.

I also believe that SSR ammo (.38) power factor should be more realistic with the other divisions. Either all ammo power factors reflect +P ammo power factor or decrease the SSR power factor to reflect something like Winchester White Box or equal.

Yours respectfully
Garry Newton
AO9541

[The Drew]

while I don't disagree... chronoing ammo has some challenges... especially when we talk about off the shelf practice ammo. which is what everyone uses unless loading your own.

WWB 9mm has been problematic at times. should this be cause to DQ a competitor?

temp, altitude, humidity all play roles...

I think this is one of those things that is best left to the discretion of the MD
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Drew Bingaman
A23026

[RickB]

Requiring full power factor out of the competitor's gun would mean that anyone using a "real" carry gun, with a 3"-4" barrel, would have to load hot to make pf, while those already shooting game guns, with max barrel length and max weight, could still load down; encourage real carry guns on one hand, then heavily penalize those who use them? That said, as MD of an annual sanctioned match, it can make chronoing a headache. But, so few people shoot anything but max size/max weight guns, it generally isn't too bad.

Edit: I have my member number in my signature line, have the attach signature boxes checked, but the sig still doesn't appear; any ideas?
Woop, there it is!
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A07876

[solaritx]

Not sure I follow the logic here?

It's ok to shoot underpower ammo from a heavy Beretta 94 so they not only don't have to make power factor but have a heavy weapon to buffer......as long as the ammo makes power factor out of a Glock 34?

White box makes power factor just fine out of the pizza gun......this is not the issue. It's those that reload and push the power factor to the edge. Then when chrono'ed and fail, they pull the borrowed G-34 out and shoot it through it, and away they go.

This is just one example, but my feeling is that you choose the gun you shoot. Power factors are there so that everyone is playing on a level field. In this case, they are not. They are not shooting the G-34 so they are not shooting the minimum power factor required to participate out of the gun they are competing with.
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Garry Newton
A09541

[buzzdraw]

The provision to shoot ammo in longest barrel gun legal in the class is perhaps to allow shooters to use store-bought ammo; I don't really know the reason for the rule. It does give a shooter running on the edge of Division legal a 2nd chance at the chrono table.

Its surprising how many shooters don't have access to a chrono or never take the opportunity to chrono their ammo when one is available on the practice range.

I do think that the ammo the shooter brings to the match should make power factor out of THEIR gun, not some "gun of last opportunity". I've had to drag out the "special" gun at Major match chrono tables a couple times; it takes extra time.

The shooter should be responsible for his own ammo out of his gun. If it doesn't make it, oh well!
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Jack A02011

[tflhndn]

With all due respect to the previous posters who feel that you should have to "make" power factor out of the gun you shoot, I think you are missing the point of what power factor measures.

The concept of power factor is to measure the ammo, i.e. bullet weight times velocity... in an attempt to ensure the amount of recoil each shooter must handles remains fair.

usually, the velocity of a certain ammo would be tested out of a test barrel, of a certain length for all ammo, because it is known that the same ammo out of differetn barrels would have different velocities, and YET, the same ammo is the same ammo.

the only real difference is "perceived" recoil by the shooter, which is dependant on teh gun. This is why guns are restricted in their maximum weight.

I shoot both a 3" Kimber 1911 and a 5" Kimber 1911. I always use factory ammo, 185gr ball, with a factory rated 900 fps muzzle velocity.

Now we all know that my 3" barrell will not allow the bullet to reach 900 fps, yet the recoil from the 3" is MUCH worse than the 5" - so why should I have to use an even more powerful load in the smaller gun? It is already a competitve disadvantage to use it, but I like using my carry piece.

In short, just because the gun won't allow the ammo to reach its top muzzle velocity does not mean the shooters is not getting the full recoil...
And recoil is why the power factor requirements are in place.

-Ray
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Ray

[kdmoore]

I agree totally with the entire post from tflhndn.

[Craig Buckland]

I strongly agree with Gary.

The ESP, SSP and CDP PF are easily made with any domestic "ValueMegaHyperpack" 9mm 115 gr or 45 ACP 230 gr ammo out of a 4" gun. Relative to 5" guns these PF are very low compared to full charge service ammunition. Run some 9mm 125 gr Speer Gold Dots or 45ACP 230 gr Federal HydraShocks through a 5" gun and see for yourself.

Most 5" guns make 135000 or 175000 PF respectively with no problem. So, asking a 4" gun to make 125000 PF is not a big deal. Super Hyper Value Pack or defensive 40S&W loads - the most popular domestic Police caliber - are not even worth mentioning.

A Glock 17, S&W M&P 9, or Sig 229, etc. - all with ~4" barrels - easily make 125000 PF with domestic commercial ammunition, much less full charge service ammunition. Get some Winchester, Remington or Federal 9mm 115 gr FMJ super packs and check for yourself. In fact ,making a lot of 5" guns run reliably at the lower (125000 and 165000) PFs sometimes even requires a spring change - why do you think that might be?

If contestants are loading their own ammo, they are most likely using their gun, not the range gun, to develop loads (the bright ones are anyway). This also greatly simplifies the chrono procedure - making it more likely it will be deployed, and hence respected. Let the shooter fire a couple rounds through his gun to warm up the barrel (and maybe burn off any oil or lube that found it way in ) and test the next 3. Done.

USPSA and ICORE have already figured this out.

Frankly, without pulling a bullet and a true random ammunition collection, it is remarkably easy to defeat the chrono systems currently applied at most IDPA matches. Chrono failures at most matches in the current system are typically a result of honest or stupid mistakes by a shooter who reloads his own ammunition , not an attempt to circumvent the rules.

We should at least make the ESP, SSP and CDP PF floors and chrono procedure consistent with the Purpose and Principles.

Amen Gary.

Craig
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Craig
IDPA A14437
ICORE MA1566
USPSA A51104

[RobMoore]

I agree that the chrono procedures used at some major matches are easily defeated. S&W was the most effective I've seen, forcing a shooter to lay out 6 mags of potential chrono ammo, 5 of which would be used in his next stage (that is how I remembered it, right?)

Even at Nationals, I was only asked, as I was sorting through my range bag readying for the stage, to pick 3 rounds to put into a baggie to send to chrono. I was even given the baggie and left to complete the task as the SO went about his business. They had no way of countering an unscrupulous shooter from having set aside special rounds he knew to make PF, while using too-light ones for the match. I think S&W was the first match I've been to where I didn't have control over which rounds went to chrono.

Why bother if you're only going to be catching the really daft cheaters?
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A28264

[Brad Schilling]

I say the SO's and/or scorekeeper's should be allowed to take ammunition out of the shooter's magazines that are on his/her belt. And this would be strictly at random.

I was going to say have the match staff pick up the mags randomly off the ground, but in IDPA mags on the ground shouldn't have any ammo in them anyway.

Or if the match staff really wanted to be jerks about it, they could ask for a sample of ammo in the morning, put them in zip loc bags with the shooter's score sheet label on them. Then later on during the day at the chrono stage go ahead and shoot the previously acquired sample over the chrono. But then randomly ask people for the mags off their belts. Then shoot that ammo over the chrono.

If we end up with two way off PF averages, especially one that is above the PF cutoff and one that is below, then we know we have a cheater amongst us. DQ accordingly and then push the shooter's name up through channels to HQ.

Brad Schilling
A21047
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Competition doesn't build character. It reveals it.

First person camera views of me shooting matches can be found here:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=posercam&emb=0&aq=f#

I call it the posercam.

[The Drew]

after talking to an actual authority on chronoing rounds at sanctioned matches (including nationals) I think the whole system should be scrapped.

The current system could be used as a start, a DQ should NOT be the penalty for ammo being too light... I think a FTDR would possibly be more appropriate or an even lesser penalty.

the equipment isn't good enough IMO (especially the chrono, but also the reloading equipment)
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Drew Bingaman
A23026

[RickB]

[Dean Brevit]

The best chrono way, nationals 2000, shooter could be asked for ammo at any time, at any stage and at more than one stage, before you shot or at the point you unloaded to show clear, I asked a few shooters for the mag after I asked them to show clear, pulled a few rounds from that mag, put them in a bag with the shooters number, done. Chance of getting gig was high if you were playing the PF game.

Dean Brevit